Here's an interesting conversation I had with a friend of mine via Instant Messaging.
me: yo dave
David: what up dog
me: tell me what u think of this...I bloged about a witness enconter http://mylifeas
David: it's written well
me: thanks homey now stop with the calvinism bashing!!
David: your witness encounter was pointless. that man will go to heaven or hell based ONLY on whether your god tapped him on the head with the magic wand of irrestible grace back before he created the universe.
me: He gets saved only if God did what he did to lydia in acts 16:14..."open hear heart to believe the message." Unless God does that, my preaching is in vain. Ur really brave to talk about God in that way, bro!
David: i didn't talk about God in that way. I talked about your god
me: brb
David: your god doesn't exist.
me: O....K. so what about God using the means of witnessing to bring his elect home scares u?
David: that's not how your god works. He tapped people on the head with the magic wand of predestination a long time ago. You didn't tapped on the head with the magic wand of predestination? You're out of luck and going to hell forever. that's how your god works.
me: how bad do u think sin is? not so bad, bad, very bad, God hating u bad?
David: sin brings forth death.
me: hell too, right?
David: hell seems pretty bad, based on the Bible.
me: even worse than man's mind can begin to fathom, right?
David: the bible doesn't go into much detail about hell. the apocalypse of peter does
me: would u say that hell, like Heaven, cannot be grasped by the finite mind?
David: i know where you're going with this. it all gets back to whether TULIP is flawed or not.
me: forget that tulip stuff, track with me Can u fathom God's wrath expressed in hell?
David: no
me: its worse than u can even begin, right?
David: i don't know
me: so its not that bad, then? maybe it can be tolerated?
David: asked and answered
me: u tell me track with me...
David: hell's bad
me: lets consider a glimpse of its "badness." consider this scripture..."...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed." (2Th 1:5-10) would u say that is scary?
David: yes
me: me too. So those who sin and do not believe will suffer this kind of fate. That's how 'wicked' sin and unbeliref is to God. what are ur thoughts on that?
David: i agree
me: cool! So sin is that bad. agree?
David: not submitting to God and not believing on his Son so that your sins can be forgiven is bad.
me: I would say its wicked. but... do u agree with this too? Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
David: yes
me: excellent! one more. "The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one." (Psa 14:2-3) agree with that?
David: Rom 3:20-22 For no one is declared righteous before him by the works of the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God (which is attested by the law and the prophets) has been disclosed —namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe.
me: agreed! But what are ur thoughts on this?
The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one. (Psa 14:2-3)
David: that was my answer
me: ohhh. So when the scripture I quoted says that God saw that no one sought him (Psa 14:2-3, Rom 3:11, etc), u say some choose to in and of their own volition and choice without God doing anything?
David: i'm saying what the verse says. the verse says God's righteousness is available through Christ to all who believe.
me: i agree with that. But ur taking it a step further; and ur step isnt implied in the verse
David: Believing is by faith. An action based on belief and sustained by confience.
me: ur saying men believe in and of their own volition? "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 The 2:13-14). read that verse
David: correct
me: Look at the words in the verse: "God choose you to be saved...and belief in the truth."
David: otherwise they can't be held accountable for their sins.
me: why not?
David: because your god meticulously guides every molecule in the universe for his glory. including their commission of sins.
me: yeah thats right - kinda like this: Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
guiding "EVERYTHING" even evil
David: God did guide and direct Jesus' execution. Does that mean he guides and directs everything?
me: for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. (Act 4:27-28) see again
David: God did guide and direct Jesus' execution. Does that mean he guides and directs everything?
me: sure
David: why?
me: don't know he wouldnt be much of a "all powerful" God if he didnt tho
David: i want you to say "BUBBA" out loud where you are sitting. Let me know when you said it.
me: done
David: did God meticulously guide you to say that? Or did he meticulously guide me to ask you? I say no. What do you say?
me: lol. U sound like John Piper before he was a Calvinist. He gave a similar example to his teacher, and said "that was how I understood God's presdenstinatio
here's my thoughts on ur question tho...The bible says that "all of our ways are in God" and that "from him are all things." Therefore, God not only knew you'd ask me that, but allowed it. the only reason we did that that whole exersise is because God foreordained it to occure
in our talks and our knowledge of him, im sure he's glorified.
David: that's funny
me: I am God, and there is none like me, Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,'
David: so i'm a robot. you're a robot. we're all robots whose every word, thought, and action was pre-programmed by a megalomaniac god.
me: robot? no. Governed beings, yes. Men are free moral agents that are free to a point (that is, in a specfic context). God is the ONLY being that is truely free
David: whatever
me: why do the heathen rage or the wicked plot a vain thing, dave?tell me bro, how do u understand this? "for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."(Act 4:27-28)
David: because god made them
me: is that what is says?
David: no its what you said. your god foreordains everything, so he must have foreordained that
the heathen raged and the people imagined a vain thing! But the Bible say THEY did it.
me: so tell me, what does the verse say. do shy away. talking about acts 4:27-8 now
David: i already answered that.God directed Jesus' execution.
me: was evil people's action involved?
David: yes
me: kinda like the following, right? Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
David: God intervenes in specific situations.
me: just some?
David: yes, just some
me: why some and not all? What dictates God in intervening in this affair and not that one?
consider this while u think: "I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,'
David: Why not all? Because the Bible doesn't reveal that about him.
that verse doesn't support your point,
me: so when the bible says "for from him and through him and to him are "ALL things," they mean some?
David: that verse doesn't say God meticulously directs every single choice, word, thought, action of every single human being. WE'RE NOT ROBOTS!!!!!!!!!
me: i know the verse doesnt ways that we're robots - u say that. u dont believe God is in total control of all things tho?
David: he's sovereign over all things
but that doesn't mean he directs every single word, thought, and action of PEOPLE.
me: how do u understand this? Rev 17:17 for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.
David: specific situations, God intervenes.
me: ohhh...so lets see things from the other side, ur side. was God involved in 911?
David: don't know.
me: was he involoved in all the wars where people died
David: according to your warped beliefs, yes.
me: but u? is he involoved in people who get om car accodent?
David: in certain situations, yes, God is involved. he sends angels to help people, to carry out tasks. But he doesn't meticulously pre-program every thought, word, and action of every person.
Don't make me type that again.
me: lol! OK. Is God invloved in every bird falling from a tree?
me: let me help u answer that...Mat 10:29 "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father."
David: ok, then go jump out of a tall tree and see what happens
me: it is written "you shall not test the Lord your God."ur not looking at scripture. if u were, u'd see that "no bird falls to the ground apart from God." And yet, people are more important to the Father than birds. Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. I rolled a dice one time, and got six on 3 different dices that was from God
David: God directed Barry Soetoro to have gay sex and smoke crack when he was senator of Illinois.
me: who's barry soetoro? Whoever he is, God didnt stop him Gen 20:6 Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her.
David: Obama
me: God keeps people from sin. Apparently that Barry guy was left to his own free will That's NOT a good thing! By the way...God put Obama as our president
David: yeah
me: good, we agree!!
David: and he made him have gay sex and he made him smoke crack Barry Soetoro is Barrack Obama, in case you didn't know that.
me: hmm? I Didnt. But in regard to ur last comment...Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. God doesnt make man sin - men choose to sin. God only stops men from sinning.
David: thanks for clearing that up.
me: sure
David: gotta go study for Sunday School.
me: OK...Peace bro!
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